View Full Version : My car is ultra broke now!!!! Cams??
OK back to this stage again, my car is now officially ****ed!
Just been towed home, suspected problem: Camshaft Broken
Driving along earlier, the engine management lights came on (dont know which) and then my car lost all power, the exhaust was continually popping, and then i stopped the car.
Left it a few minutes, tried to start it, it feels like its going to start, but then nothing what so ever.
The recovery bloke took the cambelt cover off, he said the cambelt is turning, but he thinks the camshaft has broken, as its not turning behind that?
He also said, theres no compression, and that the pulley may have come adrift?
ARGH!!!!!!! typical
Any ideas of what i basically do now? Im assuming this is pretty serious, ie head could now have issues, or the valves and pistons could have also been damaged.
Any ideas how much something like this could cost to fix, i assume its going to be a fairly high figure!
Help?
UPDATE ON PAGE 3
NEW UPDATE ON PAGE 9
i think i need to investigate further into the matter, reckon its a good idea to take the rocker cover off and go further or?
dannysport18
08-04-2007, 22:43
Hi mate pop the rocker cover off an have a look also take the plugs out an have a look
Hi mate pop the rocker cover off an have a look also take the plugs out an have a look
is there anything in particular i should be looking for?
May be a silly question, but if the camshaft is broken, is it easy to spot?
It will be immediately obvious. Bit of a wierd problem really.
dannysport18
08-04-2007, 22:48
camshaft is broken thats a new one on me i would take the cover off an have a look
also with the plugs out have a look with a torch see if you can see any damage
well he thought the cambelt had snapped, or thats what he said it was first..
and he took the cambelt cover off, and it was fine, then he suddenly said hmm, the pulleys are turning, so it must be whats behind that, ie camshaft :s
dannysport18
08-04-2007, 23:04
if the car started again an was popping i would say its down to the coil pack an plugs ???? worth a look
if the car started again an was popping i would say its down to the coil pack an plugs ???? worth a look
it wouldn't start again mate, once it broken down, it kept trying to turn over, but just wouldnt actually start up.
dannysport18
08-04-2007, 23:10
what did it sound like ? if a cam shaft has broken you would hear a BANG an the dash should light up like a Xmass Tree
what did it sound like ? if a cam shaft has broken you would hear a BANG an the dash should light up like a Xmass Tree
well, the dash has got loads of lights on, not exactly sure which ones though.
Do you mean i'd hear a bang when i try and start it? If so, i havent heard any bang.
noise wise, i should have got a recording really, but basically, i try and start it, and it sounds like its trying to start, but wont kick in, and keeps just turning over, not sure how else to describe it
dannysport18
08-04-2007, 23:21
i dont think its the camshaft thats gone pop ?
how many keys do you have for the car ?
i dont think its the camshaft thats gone pop ?
how many keys do you have for the car ?
got 2 keys mate, why?
I'd take a recording of the sound, but its a bit late now so will do it first thing
dannysport18
08-04-2007, 23:27
go try the other key in the car
go try the other key in the car
ill have to try it first thing mate, because either side of my house theyve got babies, so dont want to wake them up.
How come you suggested that anyways?
dannysport18
08-04-2007, 23:48
some times the car will lose sink with the key an wont start
had it on the audi when i was 400 miles from home :lol:
would that cause it to die during driving though?
dannysport18
09-04-2007, 00:02
would that cause it to die during driving though?
dont know but its worth a try as its free also have a look at a few easy things like all 4 plugs ect ect
if the cam shaft snapped it would of just stop there and then and not run at all as your valves would not be opening or closing.
It's morel likly to be a tensioner pulley given that the belt is intact.
If a cam is broken then it soumds from your description the verier pully is still turning so the frature is where they join, but that's a rare fault.
All I can say is DO NOT KEEP TURNING THE ENGINE OVER AS YOU COULD BE DAMAGING THE VALVES AND PISTONS.
At a guess I'd say your valves and pistons have hit each other, the cause...well take the cam cover off and you'll see the cam shafts in front of you and you'll spot if they are broken, I'm guessing they are not.
cheers for the advice/info so far.
I did try the other key on the offchance, same issue though, so im going to start working on it asap, i dont know enough to identify the problem, unless it stands out, so i may be taking numerous pictures to ask for advice :)
Update:
Taken the rocker cover off etc, and the camshaft looks fine!
Ive turned both vernier pulleys, and both of these seem to be turning the camshaft fine..
There seems to be no damage on the camshaft either, ive taken the spark plugs out, and ive shone a torch down the holes, and cannot see 100% but there looks to be no damage down there.
All 4 spark plugs look a bit dodgy, and have got a brown, maybe burnt colour to them on the actual casing itself, plus i found one of the spark plugs to have its gap totally closed???
Pics as follows:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/astra-sport/Photo-0347.jpg
Its the second sparkplug thats got its gap closed.
Has anyone got any ideas what the problem could be, because now ive sort of exhausted my knowledge... any ideas?
MOOGLEYS
09-04-2007, 12:10
Looks like something down the bottom end has gone and caused your piston to hit the plug....??
Looks like something down the bottom end has gone and caused your piston to hit the plug....??
That doesnt sound too good, but would make sense.
Ive turned the pulleys again so the other pistons have come to the top of the engine, and i cant see any actual damage on them *but its hard to properly see*.. there does look like theres a bit of grit/small peice of metal on one of the pistons, but that could have fell in (and this isnt the same piston for the damaged spark plug :s
i cant see the piston doing that to the spark plug as it would of have to have snapped off the con rod to do it or the cam belt to have snapped and if it has done it to the spark plug then it will off hit the valves for difinate and would of damaged them, meaning a head off job!
what would you say to do now? I dont mind getting stuck in, and having a look at stuff, but ive got no idea if thats the way i should be going. I can follow the haynes manual once i buy it, and take the head off and go from there, what else could have caused the issues though?
could be just a dead coil pack since it was running rough, or just just could of been the set of plugs that u took out.
If you know someone near you ask to borrow there coil pack and see if that helps before you buy a new one as i dont think they are cheep. just put a new set of plugs in as well as that aint cheep to replace.
What mods are you running and what plugs are you using?
could be just a dead coil pack since it was running rough, or just just could of been the set of plugs that u took out.
If you know someone near you ask to borrow there coil pack and see if that helps before you buy a new one as i dont think they are cheep. just put a new set of plugs in as well as that aint cheep to replace.
What mods are you running and what plugs are you using?
do you know the symptoms of a dodgy coil pack then?
And if i were to ask someone if i could borrow theirs, does it have to be from the z20let or?
Im using iridium spark plugs at the moment, will try and get some more today.. also, mods as follow:
Courtenay 9Ltr SMIC, 888 Miltek Exhaust, Pipercross Viper Induction Kit, Iridium Plugs, Vmax Stage 1 Remap, Regal Precat, Baileys DV, Veccy C Intake Pipe
just looks like your plugs have burnt for some reason?
ya i believe the zlets coil pack doesnt go on anything else.
missfire is a common sytom of the coil pack and now yours wont start again it could be that its give up altogether!
just worth a try before you strip it all down.
when the "AA man" said you had no compression was that after he did a test or did he just listen to the engine turning over?
just looks like your plugs have burnt for some reason?
ya i believe the zlets coil pack doesnt go on anything else.
missfire is a common sytom of the coil pack and now yours wont start again it could be that its give up altogether!
just worth a try before you strip it all down.
when the "AA man" said you had no compression was that after he did a test or did he just listen to the engine turning over?
erm, he just listened to it as far as i know, he didn't do any tests. He thought the cambelt had snapped first, then he took the cover off and was quite suprised it hadnt. Would a coil pack just go like that during driving?
Thinking back, the engine management(car with spanner) came on about 2 seconds before it all died if that makes any difference.
anything can go at any time really mate. i would just give the coil pack and set of plugs ago first
okay then, will do that, So ill buy the coilpack, then some plugs and then put everything back together and just try and start the car again?
jamesmurray
09-04-2007, 14:17
did he hook his computer thing upto the the battery terminals then crank the engine over? from this he can tell if theres compression on the cylinders. if theres no compression, then it means theres a mechanical problem, either cambelt slip, broken valve, pistons,rods, etc. and that nackered plug would suggest a mechanical problem.
either way time the engine up on the timing marks on the rocker cover, see if the belt has slipped.
jimbo
did he hook his computer thing upto the the battery terminals then crank the engine over? from this he can tell if theres compression on the cylinders. if theres no compression, then it means theres a mechanical problem, either cambelt slip, broken valve, pistons,rods, etc. and that nackered plug would suggest a mechanical problem.
either way time the engine up on the timing marks on the rocker cover, see if the belt has slipped.
jimbo
he connected something to the battery, but dont know exactly what this was, or what it did..
So basically if i sort the timing marks, i should be able to tell straight away if thats the issue or not, and can you do this without the use of a haynes manual, as ive not been able to get a lift to the shops yet :s
did he hook his computer thing upto the the battery terminals then crank the engine over? from this he can tell if theres compression on the cylinders. if theres no compression, then it means theres a mechanical problem, either cambelt slip, broken valve, pistons,rods, etc. and that nackered plug would suggest a mechanical problem.
either way time the engine up on the timing marks on the rocker cover, see if the belt has slipped.
jimbo
how does that work?
normally a compression test involves screwing an adaptor into a plug hole and cranking the engine so the pressure builds up, therefore giving a reading.
no compression in all cylinders means an air leak or the pistons arent moving in any of the bores
try cranking the engine with no plugs in, but with 4 slips of paper strapped over the plug holes, if they fly up, you have at least some compression
also no compression would be a symptom rather than a cause, the fact, also if your valves were going to get ****ed they already are im afraid.
you car suddenly died suggests that it wasnt something leaky, as these sort of problems present as a gradual reduction of power over time, and usually only on one cylinder.
how does that work?
normally a compression test involves screwing an adaptor into a plug hole and cranking the engine so the pressure builds up, therefore giving a reading.
no compression in all cylinders means an air leak or the pistons arent moving in any of the bores
try cranking the engine with no plugs in, but with 4 slips of paper strapped over the plug holes, if they fly up, you have at least some compression
also no compression would be a symptom rather than a cause, the fact, also if your valves were going to get ****ed they already are im afraid.
you car suddenly died suggests that it wasnt something leaky, as these sort of problems present as a gradual reduction of power over time, and usually only on one cylinder.
to do that test, would i need to put the rocker cover back on again, and re attach the hoses? it makes sense to put it all back together but you never know.
and then just as you say, put some paper over the holes (tape them?) and just try and start the car? sorry to go over what you've said, just want to make sure im doing it right
ya built it all back up agian and just leave the spark plugs out. your could do one at a time this would be easier to tell which one has no compression. if you just tape the paper down and you should also get a light spray of oil on the paper from out of the bore.
no need for the cam cover really, but be prepared for oil to go everywhere if you don't, and if you cover it with something cloth like it could tangle in the cams (can just place the cover on). what you really need is one of those cameras they use for pinhole surgery, have a look on ebay :D.
to be honest if the engine failed suddenly, and there were no massive bangs/clunks/crunches id place money on it being either something electronic or something easy to fix. the fact the cambelt is connected and both cams turning suggests your valves are not mashed and your cylinder head will be fine.
any signs of hg failure? loose cables? plug in the spark plugs to the COP module out of the car (or leads if the z20 uses DIS) and crank the engine with them secured in a wooden block isolated from anything else, it will be immediately obvious if your sparking. you should be able to smell unburned petrol from the engine also suggesting you have fuel.
finally only crank it a few times each test, as your passing **** loads of unburned fuel down through the turbo and exhaust. Might be worth cranking the front of the car up on axle stands in the hope that any unburned fuel at least runs into the muffler where it'll get burned up, rather than the cat where it'll do damage.
If you have fuel and spark and compression the cambelt is intact god knows what's wrong!!
You could well do wtih investing in a proper compression tester from halfrauds to check the status of compression properly on each cylinder.
basically i put everything back together and put some white tape over each of the holes where the sparkplugs would go. Cranked it over a few seconds, the alarm came on?? so i then stopped.
Looked at the tape and i cant see anything what so ever, so i dont know if i didnt do this exactly right, but theres no sign of anything on there. and i can smell petrol once i did it.
jamesmurray
09-04-2007, 17:51
the computer thing that the AA used gives a graph trace. it works in conjunction with the load on the battery. im pretty sure they connect a lead to the lead going to the coilpack.
my bet would be a mechanical problem going by the lack of compression. id time the cams up and see if theyre all timed correctly, then use a proper compression tester to test for compression.
when was the cambelt last changed?
jimbo
jamesmurray
09-04-2007, 17:59
for help on timing the belt up have a look at this;
http://www.zlet.co.uk/TimingBelt.htm
jimbo
i'd go back to basics and do what jamesmurray said and start with lining up the timing marks to see if the t/belt has slipped. if all is well with the timing then do a cylinder leakage test and see if this points to any particular cylinder. if u have more than 15%(i think) leakage on any cylinder then its head off time i'm afraid!
Ok, ive done the timing check, and ive turned the pulley around to the two white lines are at the top. does this look ok then:
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/astra-sport/Photo-0349.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/astra-sport/Photo-0348.jpg
jamesmurray
09-04-2007, 20:05
yeah that looks fine, but you also need to check the timing mark on the crank pulley, which involvles removing the crank pulley which drives the auxiallry belt. only then can you check the timing mark propelry.
if it all checks out okay then id do a compression test on each of the cylinders.
jimbo
yeah that looks fine, but you also need to check the timing mark on the crank pulley, which involvles removing the crank pulley which drives the auxiallry belt. only then can you check the timing mark propelry.
if it all checks out okay then id do a compression test on each of the cylinders.
jimbo
ahh, the bottom pulley then that you use to move the two top ones im assuming?
How do you actually remove the bottom pulley then? i know theres 4 bolts to remove, but what about the belt that goes around it?
Cheers
dannysport18
09-04-2007, 20:34
take the wheel off an look that way :)
take the wheel off an look that way :)
ive done that now mate, and i can undo the bolts, just unsure about the belt that goes around it :confused:
jamesmurray
09-04-2007, 21:34
you need to use a 16mm spanner on the alt belt tensioner to remove the tension in the belt, then its jsut a case of sliding off the alt belt. remove the 4 bolts holding the pulley onto the crank and youl get full access to the timing mark on the crank
jimbo
you need to use a 16mm spanner on the alt belt tensioner to remove the tension in the belt, then its jsut a case of sliding off the alt belt. remove the 4 bolts holding the pulley onto the crank and youl get full access to the timing mark on the crank
jimbo
ok mate cheers for that, will try that tomorrow after work as its gone dark now. Do you have to take the whole belt off, or just so i can slip it off the pulley?
jamesmurray
09-04-2007, 21:50
it would be easier removing the whole belt, jsut make sure u know how the belt is routed, saves head scratching when trying to refit it!
jimbo
jamesmurray
09-04-2007, 21:51
have you got a better foto of the damaged spak plug? any bits of it missing?
jimbo
tbh honest mate id get a haynes manual befor removing serious parts of your engine you dont want to put it back slightly wrong and have to put your engine in the bin
yea im def getting a manual tomorrow, i would have got one today, but the mate who promised me a lift to the shop let me down..
im just going to get a pic of the damaged spark plug
have you got a better foto of the damaged spak plug? any bits of it missing?
jimbo
Sorry, the pics are crap, i havent got my camera so these are on my phone.
Basically, the nib bit that usually sticks out of the spark plug has totally been squashed. and the gap bit is touching the spark plug itself, if that makes sense.
as i say, the pic really does suck, heres a diagram of whats happened.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/astra-sport/Photo-0353.jpg
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/astra-sport/plug.gif
dannysport18
09-04-2007, 22:58
so the tip is missing ?
looks like it has had a Hit dose it have any marks on it ?
jamesmurray
09-04-2007, 23:03
hmm seems to me somthing has hit it. when the engine went ere you onboost at the time? could be a broken valve, valve guide, piston, bits off the turbo. i can see the cylinder head coming off for this one!
jimbo
to find out if there is anything left in the cyclinder that could hit it put one of the other plugs in the cyclinder that the ******* on come out of and give the engine a spin over and then remove it and see if it gets bent, otherwise i would still put a new set of plugs and a coil pack on it and see what happens as its one hell of alot easier and cheeper way! then if its no good take the head off.
just try as much as you can before stripping it down!
as far as i can see, theres no damage when i look down the holes that the sparkplugs sit into, but its only a small hole so you cant see too much.
The sparkplug itself is just totally squashed, and the tip looks like its been squashed by the other bit.
Ill put the spark plugs in tomorrow night and then try and turn the engine over to see if anything else happens :s
dharding02
10-04-2007, 01:17
Just sort of skim read this thread. My cambelt skipped a year ago. and had similar symptoms, but the pictures of your pulleys show no movement in the timing, so thats a positive sign.
Like you have just said above try with new spark plugs, but obviously not the black and bent ones. a nice new set. See if cylinder 2 one gets bent again? I would say though, you arent gonna know anything until you take off the head i'm afraid. It sounds mechanical rather than electrical to me.
yea, ive just been speaking to Jam, and a lot of the things he's suggested and said make logical sense to me.. ie mechanical issues, because something has definately hit that spark plug, so maybe a new coilpack and plugs would fix the issue, but theres an underlying problem.
He's said it could be something to do with the impellas off the turbo maybe sheering off and been inducted into the engine, im sure i read on here about someone else having similar issues? so maybe a possibility?
Got no words of wisdom to help you out mate, but just cant believe the bad luck your having with your coupe! seems to be one problem after another for you:(
Hope you get it sorted soon and it aint to costly!:wink:
Ive turned the pulleys again so the other pistons have come to the top of the engine, and i cant see any actual damage on them *but its hard to properly see*.. there does look like theres a bit of grit/small peice of metal on one of the pistons, but that could have fell in (and this isnt the same piston for the damaged spark plug :s
I'd investigate that bit of metal first before trying to start the engine again. As somthing has oviously hit the spark plug to close the gap.
I'd investigate that bit of metal first before trying to start the engine again. As somthing has oviously hit the spark plug to close the gap.
yea, i think im going to have to, its weird how its happened, no big clunk or bang, no major noticable damage, no seen damage on the pistons that i can see yet, the pistons are coming to the top fine and so forth, everything seems to be turning as it should, mind boggling!
lean out leading to dead valve? could explain a lack of compresson.
probably more likely than a turbo blade shearing off, although thats not impossible. get a telescopic scewdriver and have a little poke through the spark plug holes.
With the pistons going up and down fine mate it means that the pistons are not the cause of the flat spark plug.
It could be a manufacturing fault on the spark plug a weak peice and the forces bending it but I've never ever heard of that happening before. So I would be checking the intake system over for any signs of something being inducted. The only thing I can think of is an impellor being inducted. But if anyone else has any ideas?
I'd check the turbo over mate make sure theres not too much play in it and that all impellors are accounted for.
Something has bent that bloody plug :confused:
Yep next step is to investigate the turbo properly, fish the debris from the bore, and do a full compression test on each cylinder.
There is no haynes for the z20let, but I can scan any related pages from the x20xev manual I have if that is of use?
hey guys, really apreciate all this help and advice you know!
Firstly, now got a haynes manual :) so markyG cheers but im ok for the scans.
Just ordered a compression tester, collecting it at dinner time so i can try that.
Regarding the impeller shearing off, ive heard of it before i think on this site, not sure who else. But can this happen though, is it possible for it to actually be inducted back into the engine? im assuming it would be from the top of the turbo back into the engine that way, i just cant see how it would happen :s
What did you mean by: "lean out leading to dead valve?"? whats lean out?
Cheers
The impeller would have to go from the turbo compressor wheel, through the intercooler, and past the throttle bodys and past the valves, but there is a lot of fast moving air going in that general direction so it is possible. I doubt a turbine blade would go backwards against the air flow, but again its possible and maybe more likely as its right next to the engine and subject to lots of heat and stress.
dannysport18
11-04-2007, 18:55
i my self would pop a few new plugs in an see if it runs
but first see if any bits of plug are left in No 2
Update:
I got a compression tester.
Basically, with the coil pack still unplugged as you're supposed to do, i used the same 3 plugs (these look ok apart from the slight burntness on the white coating) and then put the compression tester screwed into slot 1.
tried to start the engine for a few seconds as it suggests..
I did this on all 4 plug holes, and not one gave me a reading, ie 0 for all 4.
Although number 4 did flicker a tiny bit, but not sure if the others did or not.
Does that mean no compression, what could that be?
I then tried a different coil pack just as a test, this made no difference, and the car would still not turn on.
Any ideas?
jamesmurray
11-04-2007, 20:11
ok the lack of compression on any cylinders suggests a cambelt slippage or valve train problem of some kind. the next thing to do is taking the cylinder head off and seeing what the damage is.
jimbo
if there is no compression on any of them then you will definatly have to have the head off but it sounds like there is valves stuck open for some reason or the head/ block has a problem.
does no compression mean there is a hole or something along those lines? or a gap so the air can not compress? i may be talking absolute rubbish here though, so im open to correction
Scottyboy
11-04-2007, 21:42
does no compression mean there is a hole or something along those lines? or a gap so the air can not compress? i may be talking absolute rubbish here though, so im open to correction
Basically yes - a hole in the piston (unlikely!), valve dropped/bent/or out of time, or fried/cracked piston rings - all not good I'm afraid.
Basically yes - a hole in the piston (unlikely!), valve dropped/bent/or out of time, or fried/cracked piston rings - all not good I'm afraid.
grrr typical, nothing is ever an easy problem with me/my car :p
its that each bore is not sealed so the air and fuel mixture is escaping to somewhere else!
dannysport18
11-04-2007, 22:29
me i would ask some one to look at it then mate as you could of missed something easy
is there any chance of hgf?
although i do come from a rover background lols
is there any chance of hgf?
although i do come from a rover background lols
head gasket failure i take it? Not sure to be honest :s
yea, sorry should have wrote it out in full!!!
UPDATE
Well, i double checked the timing, both pulleys at TDC time up fine, as does the bottom pulley.
Everything turns/works as it should, so i was at the stage where I need to take the head off.
Before i tried that, i double checked, No compression from any cylinder.
A mate of a mate who is a mechanic has just come round, and said it seems to him that a valve has sheered off on the 3rd cylinder. So now i've got to take the head off, and look for the bits/damage as it also may now be lodged in the actual head itself.
He also had this funky tool with a magnet on, and had a fish about. Cylinder 1,2,4 fine, nothing in there, but cylinder 3 had some bits of metal(fine bits) or so it seemed :s
So head off job tomorrow :s
dannysport18
13-04-2007, 21:40
some is selling a Head on ebay
some is selling a Head on ebay
yea, spoken to him already :) cheers for the headsup though!
dharding02
14-04-2007, 01:59
sounds quite nasty to be honest. Goodluck with that. My cambelt skipped 6 teeth and screwed everything on mine about 6 months ago. I thought it might have been similar to that. But at least it times up ok!
Hope you get it back on the road soon.
slims van
13-05-2007, 08:34
if thats what the recovery bloke said its prob going to be the back wiper not working cos half of recovery men ant got a clue prob worked at netto stacking shelfs b4 that lol